Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Rachel:
Welcome to Fiber in Between. I'm your host, Rachel, and with me today is my sister Sarah, who runs Fiber In Between. That's her passion project and mom as well, for all of her expertise, mainly just her brain. So today is the much anticipated episode revolving regarding the livestock guardian dogs. So it actually is not just going to be the dogs. It's going to be llamas and donkeys and guardians all over. But all of you know our dogs, Thor, Olaf and Sven. So we're going to be talking about them. We're going to be Talking about our 20 plus years of experience involving guardians and not just with dogs, because we do have experience with llamas as well. And so it began way back in Minnesota, which is where we'll be beginning our journey. That is where Red Falcon Ranch began, all the way to the mountains of Idaho. So did you have anything you wanted to add, Sarah?
[00:01:08] Sarah: Nope.
[00:01:08] Rachel: You.
[00:01:09] Sarah: You took it away.
[00:01:10] Rachel: So go
[00:01:11] Sarah: on ahead and keep charging.
[00:01:13] Rachel: Okay, will do. So anyway, we're gonna start back in Minnesota. Now.
We began Minnesota, or Red Falcon Ranch, became established in 2005, technically, and angora goats, which is what we're most known for, actually, we didn't have those back then. We didn't even know they existed. And so we began with, you know, chickens, horses. We began with Boer goats.
And once our chickens started disappearing and we started having baby goats, we started looking into guardians because we lived along a river in southern Minnesota. So there was a river that meandered around our property. There was a lot of woods. So we had wildlife there as well. We had a lot of coyotes, we had foxes. We had the occasional mountain lion passing through. We had wolf packs that would sometimes drift down, so there was. There was predators there too. And we started losing chickens and we didn't want to lose anything else, so we began looking into guardians. Now, at that time, we were a foster home for German shepherds. And so we had always, like five giant dogs in the house in addition to little fluffy dogs. So we were very much well versed in dogs, especially large dog breeds. And we weren't keen on doing that with the goats. We weren't keen on entering into the whole livestock guardian dog world while we were already dealing with a bunch of large dogs in the house.
So my mom has always been interested in fiber art and she really wanted to spin, and so she thought maybe if, you know, what about a guardian llama? Because for those of you that don't know, llamas are a guardian animal. And so we were like, yeah, you Know, kill two birds with one stone. We can get guardian llamas and then we can, you know, shear them and mom can make whatever she wants out of their hair. And because the thing with llamas is, you know, they're big, they're very curious, they're fearless. And when they have their fleece, they always run at something and that can be very intimidating for whatever they're running at. And so we thought, yeah, that'll work.
And so we went up to a farm to look at some llamas, fell in love with two of them, and coincidentally, at that same farm is where we fell in love with angora goats. But you'll hear that in another episode because that is another episode worthy thing, another episode worthy topic.
So we got the llamas, okay? We got Moranito and we got Katia. We did not name them. They came with those names. I still don't know how to spell them. So we got those two.
Unbeknownst to us, one of them was pregnant, Katya, obviously. And like one morning my sister looked out the window, saw a little white head poking out of the grass. And sure enough, Katya had a beautiful blue eyed baby, which was, we thought that was a total miracle. Wow. How amazing is that? You know, what a, what a deal we got.
Wow.
Once Juliet, we named her Juliet once she got a little older. You know, a couple stray dogs got into the goat herd when they were out on pasture and they. And started attacking the goats. And guess what the guardian llamas did?
Nothing. They watched. They had their own little sub herd and they watched. And so thankfully we didn't lose any goats in that. But it was a very good learning experience because we were like, okay, obviously we need to up our guardian game because llamas are overrated. And so we then started looking into, you can't really up the game more than the original livestock guardian, which is the dog, because, you know, a lot of people will suggest donkeys, and a lot of people have suggested donkeys to me, because donkeys have those same characteristics where they're curious, they're fearless, and they'll kick and they'll bite and what have you. However, donkeys also are extremely vocal. Not everybody loves the sounds they make. I. I know very few people that do. And we had a donkey that lived across the way back in Minnesota. And there's a reason why we did not go with donkeys, okay? Because we already annoy our neighbors enough. The last thing we need is to add more fuel to the fire.
So we looked into Guardian dogs. And we didn't want to start with a puppy because we had no clue what we were doing. We didn't want to, you know, give. It was going to be the blind leading the blind, essentially.
So we wanted to start with an experienced guard dog. And I'll let mom take the reins there.
[00:05:55] Angela: Yes. So I searched high and low for an adult livestock guardian dog that had already been experienced in a herd and was looking for a new herd. I didn't care about the breed. I was more interested in the experience.
So I found one in northern Minnesota. And she was an Anatolian. She had been raised right in the herd from puppyhood. They got her from a breeder in Arkansas and they just pulled her out of the bush, I guess that's what the guy said, and put her on a plane, sent her to Minneapolis. He drove down and got her and threw her right in with the goats. And she was just a puppy. This was on about 60 acres with about 100 boar goats. And she was the only livestock guardian dog.
They never lost any more goats. They were having a high predation due to wolves. They never lost another goat. But it really, really took a toll on her.
She
[00:06:56] Rachel: didn't, she didn't have anybody else. No.
[00:06:58] Angela: She was just a solo livestock guardian in a high predation zone. Required her to grow up very fast.
And she had a lot of anxiety, she had a lot of stress, a lot of, lot of pts.
By the time we got her.
[00:07:12] Rachel: She wasn't allowed to take any time off.
[00:07:14] Angela: No. She had no backup and she never got a break. She was on duty 24, 7. She couldn't even get a good night's rest
[00:07:22] Rachel: from the moment she was a puppy.
[00:07:23] Angela: So when she was about three years old, they decided to sell their goats and instead of her going with her herd, they locked her up in a kennel.
And about a year later, which
[00:07:34] Rachel: is about the worst thing you can do with any working dog, let alone a livestock guardian dog.
[00:07:40] Angela: So they decided to put her up for sale and that's how we found her. What we did not know was that background where she was the solo LGD with no backup, just throwing in as a puppy with no one to even teach her that we were going to be dealing with a lot of baggage,
[00:07:58] Rachel: a lot of ptsd.
[00:08:00] Angela: And an Anatolian is a fierce protector. They're very strong.
[00:08:06] Rachel: So on the livestock guardian dog breed spectrum, there is a very wide range because every guard dog breed has their strengths and depending on that determines, you know, which one you want for what you need. And a Turkish Anatolian shepherd dog is from Turkey. And so they are. They're much higher on the intensity scale than your average guard dog breed. They're very large. They're very intense naturally. And, like, more aggressive, I would say. Not like in a bad
[00:08:44] Angela: way,
[00:08:44] Rachel: but very. But towards predators. Yeah. And unfortunately, all of those strengths turned into Happy's baggage and trauma.
[00:08:55] Angela: Yeah, her name was Happy, and she was a really sweet dog. She was really good with people, kind, gentle, loving.
But she was really intense with the goats, and she decided when they were going to drink and when they couldn't drink and where they were going to go and she would move them. And our goats were not used to dogs. No. So this was a whole new experience.
It wasn't going well for the goats, it wasn't going well for Happy, and Happy perceived everything as a threat. And she did kill a couple barn cats,
[00:09:25] Rachel: literally everything from a tiny mouse to our house dogs.
She did get two cats. I ended up pulling another cat out of her mouth like it. It was.
It wasn't a good fit, but.
And we were realizing that, but. So we decided to get a puppy
[00:09:46] Angela: right before we realized just how damaged Happy was psychologically. We thought she'll be perfect to train up a puppy because
[00:09:55] Rachel: she had so much experience
[00:09:57] Angela: and we wanted her to have backup. We didn't want her to be lonely only.
So we had some friends in California who raised Italian maremmas, and they also showed rabbits. And they were going to be coming to the Twin Cities in Minnesota to show their rabbits. And we're going to bring along this livestock guardian puppy for us. So it was perfect. This dog had been born into an angora goatherd, was raised properly by its mother, properly socialized by its humans. And so we're really thrilled to add this dog to our herd. And all was going pretty well at first. Happy seemed very happy to have a puppy as a friend and to watch over.
And then one day she just flipped a switch and she attacked him and bit his head, broke his eye socket, and. And his head never did grow symmetrical after that. And eventually it caused cancer in his sinus from all the damage
[00:10:57] Rachel: 10 years later.
[00:10:58] Angela: Yeah. It wasn't anything that happened immediately, but we realized Happy was just not a good fit for our herd.
So we ended up finding the perfect home for her. We did not want to just dump her off on somebody else. We did not want to pass along the problem.
I was very upfront, explained her needs, what she needed from her human and from her lifestyle. And there was a Young man in his 30s in Wisconsin who lived at the end of a road on about 40 acres, had some sheep, and he was looking for a dog that would be a farmyard type dog, would live outside of the fencing, would guard the sheep, would live in the house, would go everywhere with him, and he came and visited Happy, fell in love with her. She loved him, so it was a perfect situation for her. And I did follow up with him for a couple of years after that, and. And she was living her best life, so that worked out perfectly. But since we had already learned so much about the do's and don'ts of livestock guardian dogs through our experiences with Happy, we wanted to give Fluffy a companion and a helpmate.
So we found a female over in Wisconsin and went over and picked her up, and her name became Brooke.
And Brooke and Fluffy were the dream team.
They were about six months apart in age. It was a good balance there.
And they were so calm and such gentle dogs, but yet fierce and strong when they needed to be.
[00:12:37] Rachel: They were exactly what we needed for where we were.
[00:12:41] Angela: And that's how we fell in love with Italian Maremmas. And they were both purebreds.
[00:12:45] Rachel: Yep. And they. I mean, they never fought. Those two never fought. They never had any Alpha games.
Like, they were perfect together.
[00:12:55] Sarah: And they were both fixed. Cause we're not a farm that wants to be producing puppies.
So all of our livestock guardians are fixed.
[00:13:03] Rachel: Yep. Good point, Sarah. Yeah, so they were. They were both fixed. Fluffy got exceedingly big, especially for being an Italian Maremma. And for those of you that are listening and don't necessarily know what the difference between guard dog breeds, Italian Maremmas look very similar to great peers. They're big, white and Fluffy. However, their behaviors are different. So whereas Great Piers are more of an offense dog breed, Maremmas are more of a defense. And we can go into that later, getting into, like, the differences of breeds and whatnot. But Maremmas were perfect for what we needed at that time and for our herd size and everything. Because at that point we were getting into Angora goats and our herd was growing. And it was then with Fluffy and Brook, we were then having babies, being born into a herd with guard dogs. So that was our first generation of baby goats being born with guard dogs. And ever since then, all of our goats have always known guard dogs in the herd, which is quite an interesting concept because they all have memories of that now.
And so Fluffy and Brooke were absolutely amazing. However, they did each have their own quirks.
So Fluffy, I don't know whether this was due to the brain damage that he got from Happy or not, but he had his own quirks where he would bite strangers.
So we would have to. He was quite intense and he was very big.
And while he was great with us, he would bite and go after strangers. So we would have to lock him up if we knew people were coming over.
And he is the reason why. We got signs that say working livestock guardian, dog on duty.
[00:14:48] Angela: Yeah. Do not disturb
[00:14:50] Rachel: instead of beware of dog.
[00:14:52] Angela: Right.
[00:14:53] Rachel: Because beware of dog means you're acknowledging that dog's behavior, and that can open you up to lawsuits. Whereas if you're acknowledging that there is a working dog on duty, then everybody should realize that. And if anything happens, that's their fault.
[00:15:08] Angela: Right, Right.
[00:15:09] Rachel: So just FYI there, you know, if you have guard dogs, working dogs, and they're. And you tend to deal with people, I suggest getting a sign that acknowledges that instead of beware of dog.
And so. And then Brooke, she was very scared of loud noises, and she wasn't a fan of strangers. She's very shy. She was. She was quite a shy, shy dog, but they were perfect. We didn't lose any animals under. Under their protection.
And Brooke, I mean, the intelligence of these guard dogs. And this is where we fell in love with the Maremma breed. So smart, so intelligent. I remember we had a big stump in a big tree stump in the goat pen, and Fluffy went up to sit up there, and I taught him to shake with his paw in, like, two seconds. So then in a matter of just a couple minutes, we came up with this whole trick routine where he'd sit on the stump and shake with his paw. And I mean. And then I taught that to Brooke, and they were so receptive to learning tricks. And this is where we learned. We really don't have to teach them anything unless it's, like, for our own amusement. Because the guard dogs are so full of their own instinct and all the training flowing through their own DNA.
[00:16:28] Sarah: Inherent knowledge.
[00:16:29] Rachel: Yeah. That we. We really don't have to do anything. So when we got, you know, Brooke, I don't remember us really doing anything. Like, they just. They just grow up knowing what to do. You kind of facilitate, like, hey, don't chase the chickens.
Don't. This cat is under your protection. Don't eat this cat. But other than stuff like that, like, they. I'm not teaching them. You go out with the goats every day and you come back, they know that on their own, they know what to do. So definitely never Underestimate your guard dog because their intelligence is way higher than you'd ever think.
[00:17:06] Angela: They don't like to be micromanaged.
[00:17:08] Rachel: No, they do not.
[00:17:09] Angela: They already know their job.
[00:17:11] Rachel: And so, like, an example of their intelligence is Brooke. You know, Brooke was very, very athletic. She could escape any fencing. She could climb over anything. She never did unless there was an incident that called for it, because it was her choice to be with the goats.
And so whenever she did climb over, we knew something was wrong. And then she'd lead us to where the problem was. An example was that late one night, we were all in bed, and we heard Brooke barking at the garage door, which means she climbed over the fence. And so we raced down to the garage door, and she's there barking really upset, and she's looking back towards the river.
So we knew she wanted us to follow her. And so we quick grabbed our stuff and we followed her. And. And we found a break in the fence to where something ran through the fence. And there was a ravine that ran along that fence line, because then that ravine drained into the river.
And we found one of our old horses dead at the bottom of the ravine. And this horse was named Sooner. He was between 36 and 38 years old. So he was very old. He was completely blind.
And he had been blind for, like, the last 15 years of his life.
So he knew the paddock like the back of his hand.
So we, to this day have no idea what happened, why he ran through the fence. But he went head first down into that ravine and nailed, like, the only concrete block that was in that ravine. So he died instantly, which was a blessing there. But we would have had no idea that would have happened.
And we. Unless Brooke led us to him, we probably would have never found him. Like, it would have been a mystery. It would have been a long time before we figured out what would have happened. But Brooke knew that happened. Raced to the house, got our attention, brought us back there.
Just amazing. Just amazing.
[00:19:13] Angela: Yeah, she was incredible. Incredible dog.
[00:19:16] Rachel: Yeah. So that's our Brook and Fluffy. And so they were the guard dogs that we brought with us when we did the epic move from Minnesota to Idaho 12 years ago.
So I'm not sure how old they were at that time. Must have been at least a couple, three to four years old.
[00:19:35] Angela: Yeah, they would have had to be.
[00:19:37] Rachel: And so then when we moved, they made the epic move with us. They were in the. Because we hired two livestock haulers. And again, this isn't an episode on its own, but just to give you a bit of backstory.
We hired two livestock haulers to move all the animals over. And all the female goats were in the bottom of a double decker. And that's where Brooke and Fluffy stayed with them. So because you could, you cannot separate these guys from what they protect.
[00:20:05] Angela: They love them. There is no pulling them apart.
[00:20:07] Rachel: So they stayed with them for the 24 hour journey to where we are now. And we've lived in three different places here.
And the first place we lived we rented for two years. And that place was deep in the wilderness. It was three miles off the highway on a gravel road into the forest.
And I mean, we were completely out of our element. Moving from the prairies of Minnesota to the forests and mountains. We
[00:20:36] Angela: were surrounded by all the apex predators, except, like, crocodiles.
[00:20:39] Rachel: All of a sudden, all of a sudden, we were seeing bears in the neighboring pasture. We were seeing moose right on our driveway. We
[00:20:46] Angela: could hear the wolves howling. We
[00:20:47] Rachel: could hear the wolves howling. We were seeing the mountain lion paw prints everywhere. And we were like, okay, we need to up our dog power because two. That was great for Minnesota. Two worked fine.
That is not going to be enough for where we are now.
And so mom contacted Fluffy's breeder in California. He had another litter. And we decided to get two male puppies.
[00:21:17] Angela: We thought, if we're gonna make the trip, let's just get two right away. Yeah. Instead of going twice. It's
[00:21:23] Rachel: a great thought.
[00:21:24] Angela: Yeah, great, great thought.
[00:21:26] Rachel: Never doing that again.
[00:21:27] Angela: Nope. That was a really good idea. It might work for
[00:21:29] Rachel: others,
[00:21:30] Sarah: but in our case, two littermates, both boys, they fought for dominance forever.
[00:21:35] Angela: Yeah,
[00:21:36] Rachel: that was. Those two boys were Thor and Bear.
And they worked extremely well together. They also fought all the time for alpha position.
So Brook and Fluffy were amazing. They immediately took them under their wing, taught them everything they know.
But then Bear and Thor were just constantly at each other's throats. They were the best of friends and the worst of enemies.
[00:22:05] Angela: And they were neutered.
[00:22:06] Rachel: And they were neutered. Yeah. So it wasn't like they were what. Whatever the word. Whatever the word is, they weren't
[00:22:13] Angela: testosterone driven.
[00:22:14] Rachel: Yeah. So as unfortunate behavior that they learned, and that is one thing we have learned, is not to do that again unless you have fencing where you could. They could be on separate parts of the property.
[00:22:32] Angela: Yeah. Or working together doesn't work.
[00:22:34] Rachel: No.
[00:22:34] Angela: No. Siblings. We will
[00:22:36] Rachel: never do siblings. And maybe it would work better if it was a boy and girl.
[00:22:39] Angela: Maybe. But not two males. But
[00:22:41] Rachel: not two males. And maybe two females would have been Better? I don't know. But we went with two males because we figured they would do a better job of spraying the property, essentially marking their territory.
And so we got babies. Bear and Thor loved them. They were amazing. And they learned everything from Brooke and Fluffy. And so then after Brooke and Fluffy, you know, they each lived their long lives, and then Thor and Bear rose up in the ranks and Bear took after Brook and Thor took after Fluffy. And it's really interesting how that kind of happens. Yeah,
[00:23:17] Angela: they kind of choose a mentor.
[00:23:18] Rachel: They do. Based on their own similar personality and physicality traits.
I would say Brook and Fluffy, they each poured into Thorn Bear fairly equally, but Bear liked to stay at the barn more, which is what Brook also liked to do, whereas Thorn, Fluffy liked to be out with the does more. So, I mean, and it kind of.
Theirs was a lot more equal than actually what's happening now with Sven and Olaf. Whereas Olaf is literally a mini Bear and Sven is literally a mini Thor. But that. And that's purely coincidental. I don't even know how he did that, but.
So that's how he ended up with Thor and Bear.
And having those four,
[00:24:06] Sarah: Brook, Fluffy, Bear and Thor, work together when they're all in their prime was simply amazing to watch experience.
[00:24:12] Angela: Their communication was verbal with different barks and all their nonverbal communication.
[00:24:19] Rachel: Because at that time when we had all four in their prime in the middle of the wilderness, we would. We were in this valley and we had neighbors who would let us graze in their woods and forests. And so we would shepherd the goats through those woods with all four guard dogs, everything off leash. No
[00:24:42] Angela: fencing. It was
[00:24:42] Rachel: no fencing.
[00:24:44] Angela: It's like it was done for hundreds of years.
[00:24:45] Rachel: Yeah, yeah. Literally so nomadic.
And we have very few pictures and videos of that because that was 12 years ago and 10, 12 years ago. And none of us had phones, so mom had
[00:25:00] Angela: a zip
[00:25:00] Rachel: phone. Literally. It was literally a. But
[00:25:03] Angela: there wasn't even service way back then. And
[00:25:04] Rachel: there wasn't social media, there was Facebook, but it's not like. It's not like any of us were thinking, wow, people would be really interested in this.
[00:25:13] Sarah: I did want to do a reality TV show style YouTube channel, but because we had such limited.
What's it called, Internet, we
[00:25:20] Angela: had to dial up still.
[00:25:21] Sarah: It was. It was not possible for me at that time. We
[00:25:24] Rachel: only had enough Internet for dad to do his job. And even then it was. It was really tricky because I remember the livestock haulers, after they had dropped off all the animals, they were like, wow, if you guys had a camera crew out here. You guys could make the coolest TV show. And we would love to watch it, because I think. I think they'd be really interested to see where we are now.
[00:25:45] Sarah: I wish we had done some sort of filming back then,
[00:25:48] Rachel: because those where we live, the area was called Elmira. And so those Elmira days were absolutely epic. And nobody would believe half the stuff that happened down there, because I saw. I would see Fluffy and Thor and Bear and Brook chase off bears out of the apple trees. That would be. That the goats would be heading towards to graze under. So the dogs would fly, flush all the bears out. Like, they'd go after everything. We take them on hikes because we just go hiking straight out from the property, and they'd go hiking with us, you know, being with the goats. So they would be on point around the whole goat herd. You know, one of them would be on either side, one would be in the front, one would be in the back,
[00:26:33] Angela: would be, like, circling. I always,
[00:26:37] Rachel: always be watching. They'd always be listening. We never
[00:26:39] Angela: know. Sneaking up on them.
[00:26:41] Rachel: We never had to worry about them running off, because with them being all purebred Maremmas, they did not go after threats. They stayed with what they were protecting.
So that's a little bit into their. Like, they'd
[00:26:55] Sarah: run things off, but they wouldn't chase them forever.
[00:26:57] Rachel: No. And see, that's the difference. One of the major differences between a Great Pyrenees and an Italian Maremma is a Great Pyrenees. One
[00:27:06] Sarah: speaks French and one speaks Italian.
[00:27:07] Rachel: Thank you, sir.
Anyway, so one is a defense and one is an offense. And what I mean by that is a great peer. When they see a threat, when they spot a threat, they go after it, and they keep going after it. Whereas a Maremma, if they see or spot a threat, they stay with what they are protecting.
And both have their uses.
So, you know, back in Europe, oftentimes those that would herd goats or sheep up into the mountains used both defense and offense, guard dogs. So they would send the great peers up first, and they would flush out all the predators, and then the herd with the Maremmas would come in. And so they'd work very cohesively like that. And I'm seeing that even with just Sven being half great peer, we're actually seeing the two work together on the ranch right now.
[00:28:02] Angela: So we should talk about how Sven and Olaf came into our lives.
[00:28:07] Rachel: Sure.
[00:28:09] Sarah: Yeah. Kind of necessary. Yeah.
[00:28:11] Angela: So if we're gonna talk about them, we need to talk about their origin story.
[00:28:14] Rachel: Yeah. So obviously, you know, Thor and Bear have aged out. Bear has permanently aged out. He is now permanently in the pasture. He passed away at the age of 10 last summer. Bear was very big, and I think that had something to do with. Even
[00:28:32] Angela: though Bear and Thor were siblings, Thor was much more athletic and
[00:28:37] Rachel: lighter build.
[00:28:38] Angela: Yep. And Bear was the brawn.
[00:28:40] Sarah: He was built like a bear. And a little note on some more of their intelligence. When Bear was being buried in the pasture, all of the guard dogs came to pay their respects.
[00:28:50] Rachel: They did.
[00:28:50] Sarah: And it was, it was very touching. And
[00:28:52] Rachel: Thor, Thor left the herd to come say bye to his brother.
It was a very, very special moment.
[00:28:58] Angela: Very touching. Yep.
[00:28:59] Sarah: And Bear worked. I mean, a question that will come up is, do you retire the guard dogs? I don't see how that would be possible for us. I don't know if other people do that, but they don't. They live and breathe,
[00:29:11] Rachel: the goats. We don't micromanage the guard dogs. They come up with their. Basically the only thing we do is feed them and make sure they have water and shelter and cuddles and give them loving snuggles because they otherwise fully take care. They are fully capable of taking care of themselves and figuring out their own work schedules. So we have never micromanaged them that way because their intelligence can handle it, essentially. So they know, they know they're working shifts. So, like right now, Thor is day shift. Thor has always been day shift. He learned that from either Brooke or Fluffy. And then Bear was night duty and he learned that from one of them. And so that's how those two work together. And then they'd have time off.
And then now we have Olaf and Sven in the picture. And Olaf, it was Bear's apprentice because they were very similar.
And Olaf is now night duty and Sven is Thor's apprentice. So Sven is currently. Sven is only three and he's currently learning under Thor's tutelage on how to do day shift.
[00:30:14] Sarah: And as Bear got older, he would take more time to himself and let the younger ones take on more of his duties.
[00:30:21] Rachel: By, by the end, Bear pretty much just stayed at the barn.
[00:30:25] Sarah: Yeah,
[00:30:26] Rachel: he, he'd maybe go out once a day with the does and with his brother, but near the end, he just pretty much stay at the barn. And that, that was his retirement. That was him letting everybody know, hey, I'm, I'm done.
It's your guys turn now and then. And he passed away peacefully in the barn. And.
And so Thor, we've really noticed this past summer is starting to enter into a soft retirement. And Thor, next to Fluffy has been our most intense guard dog. He lives and breathes guarding the goats. He
[00:31:02] Sarah: has golden eyes. It's
[00:31:04] Angela: his life.
[00:31:04] Rachel: I don't think he'll ever fully retire. I really, I don't think he. That would even. He would even consider that. I don't think he would. He'll go out there until his body literally can't.
And so he is on arthritis meds so that he can continue going back and forth in a comfortable.
In as comfortable as he can.
[00:31:25] Sarah: He's in great shape.
[00:31:26] Rachel: Yeah. And he'll be 12 in February.
[00:31:28] Sarah: And he loves his life. Like just this morning we were doing chores and he was just rolling around in the mud for the heck of it.
[00:31:34] Rachel: He's very, very happy. He literally smiles. I have a picture of him. I take a today of him smiling. It's really cute. And so regarding the whole retirement thing, they get to choose. We're not going to choose that for them. Like their intelligence way surpasses ours in that respect. Like I'm not going to tell them how to do their job. And so he's in a soft retirement era. Sven, you know, is taking up more responsibility every day with that. But they're all working together really well.
And in that respect, we have three of them. So we have Olaf and Sven and then we have Thor who's quite old.
[00:32:10] Sarah: And we should share how we got Olaf and Sven
[00:32:12] Rachel: before I jump ahead. Yeah. So Olaf, let's see. We had Beren Thor because Fluffy had passed. We had Beren Thor
[00:32:22] Angela: and Brook had passed.
[00:32:23] Rachel: And Brook had passed. So it was just Beren Thor. And then we had a grizzly bear attack about.
It was four years ago now. We had a grizzly bear attack.
Four. Or was it three? No,
[00:32:38] Sarah: it was four. It was summer of 2022.
[00:32:39] Angela: It was four because Olaf's four.
[00:32:41] Rachel: Yeah, so and then. Yeah, that makes sense. Okay. Yeah. So we had a grizzly bear attack four years ago. And the grizzly bear came in end of July in the middle of the night, silently.
[00:32:53] Angela: Yeah, the windows
[00:32:54] Rachel: were open in the house. You'd think a grizzly bear would be very loud and they totally can be. But all the windows in the house were open. We had family over. So there was even more people in the house, more ears listening. All the windows in the house were open to get the house cool.
And the guard dogs were up here at the barn.
And then we had the big boys, which live probably just 50, 75 yards away from the house.
And a grizzly Bear came in and took a big boy and. And ate him
[00:33:26] Sarah: in the pasture. In
[00:33:28] Rachel: the
[00:33:28] Angela: pasture, just right outside their gate.
[00:33:31] Sarah: And there was never. The dogs never even smelled it.
[00:33:33] Angela: Dogs.
[00:33:34] Rachel: Dogs had no idea what was happening.
[00:33:36] Angela: Not even the house. Dogs.
[00:33:37] Rachel: Horses. Horses saw the whole thing happen. The other bucks in there didn't make a sound, even though it happened right in front of them. And there was
[00:33:48] Sarah: no snorting or running or anything.
[00:33:50] Rachel: Literally, a silent kill. And so when Sarah went out the following day and did a head count, she was missing one.
[00:33:57] Sarah: And I had a really bad feeling. I didn't even know why I had that feeling. But before I even went to go look for Enzo, I was like, I need backup. There's something wrong here. And I had seen some weird things in the dirt. Later I learned those were entrails. I just never even expected to see those. And I went and got dad and Rachel, and I was like, I need help. We need to go find him. And I found him just like 20 yards outside the pen. I didn't know it was him. I thought some animal had brought a deer in or something. I saw a rib cage, and I'm like,
[00:34:29] Angela: this
[00:34:29] Sarah: is so weird. I was like, this wasn't here yesterday. And then I was like, oh, my goodness, that's him. And I saw the horns underneath him, and he had been completely demolished and eaten.
[00:34:40] Rachel: His rib cage was ripped open.
Which made us. That. That piqued our curiosity, because what around here could rip open a rib cage? Because that happened so close to the house. And
[00:34:58] Angela: so. And with.
[00:34:59] Rachel: With so much family here, you know, like, it just. It didn't. Like, you wouldn't. You wouldn't expect that. You wouldn't expect that. And so dad and I camped out by the carcass and waited to see. With. Whatever happened came back.
And with. With firepower, obviously, because we still weren't convinced it. It was a giant grizzly bear.
But honestly, what else could have done that? Nothing. And then the next nothing came back.
So then the next day, dad was. Because we have a pond on the edge of our property, and that is a known watering source for all the wildlife around us, because we live in a wildlife corridor.
And so we decided, okay, whatever came in came through the pond.
We are going to up the fencing on the pond, because there was fencing, but clearly it went through it, whatever it was. And so we upped the fencing, and while dad was fixing the fencing, he saw on the other side in our neighbor's field, this giant pile of horse poo.
And he was like, wait, A minute. Did one of the horses escape? And so he went to go check it out and it was a grizzly bear scat.
[00:36:15] Angela: Didn't he see Poppy?
[00:36:17] Rachel: A giant pile of grizzly bear scat. And then he started noticing all the paw prints around it. And so we immediately called Idaho Fish and Game, who then also called in the U.S. fish and Wildlife Service. And they came out and they.
What's the word? They guaranteed. They clarified.
They confirmed. Thank you guys for your help with that. I wasn't sure you're
[00:36:43] Sarah: going
[00:36:44] Angela: to. I wasn't sure either.
[00:36:45] Rachel: They confirmed that it was a grizzly bear and that it was a very large grizzly bear, at least six feet tall, standing. So the
[00:36:53] Sarah: guy was pretty fearful when he was out here.
[00:36:56] Angela: So
[00:36:56] Rachel: the trapper. The trapper, the U.S. fish and Wildlife Service trapper who literally traps grizzly bears for a living.
He was scared to death out in that pasture. He was
[00:37:07] Sarah: really jumpy.
[00:37:07] Rachel: Dad and I were out there with him and he was like, are you guys carrying anything? And we're like, we have knives, you know, a pocket knife. He's like, you guys need to be carrying everywhere with you on the property. There could be one hiding in the grass right there. And we're like, oh, well, wouldn't that be amazing to see one, you know? So he was like, guys, you need to take this more seriously. But even still, even still, saying that story and just imagining the grizzly bear right there is still so mind boggling. And so we set up game cams at the pond and we have found that in July, that is a very common time for grizzly bears to come into the pond and drink.
Thankfully, we haven't had any incidents since then. And we have since put up what we've called a grizzly bear gate.
So there's really only two things to prevent grizzly bears. Because if anybody knows grizzly bears, they're huge, okay? They're huge. Brute force, really, nothing can stop them.
So it's not like you can just, you know, unless you build a wall, essentially. So electric fencing, you know, they don't want to be shocked. So electric fencing and guard dogs are the best preventative measures against grizzly bears. Because since grizzly bears are federally protected, we cannot do anything legally if they are attacking our animals.
[00:38:33] Sarah: They have to be.
[00:38:35] Rachel: We can if they're attacking us, but we legally cannot do anything if they are attacking our animals. So taking preventative measures is the best we can do.
[00:38:43] Angela: So two more dogs was our.
[00:38:45] Rachel: So we decided we need to up our dog power and we upped our electrical power, our charge. So now the bucks get locked up. They have three fences in between them and whatever wants to eat them.
So basically, we're just trying to make it as hard as possible for predators to get what they want, and they'll just decide, you know what, I'm going to go for an easier meal. And
[00:39:07] Angela: at nighttime, we open all the gates so the dogs have full range of the property.
[00:39:11] Rachel: So after. After that grizzly bear incident, we decided we need to up our dog power, which is how we got Olaf and it worked out. Where there was a farm north of us up the road that had a litter of three quarter Italian Maremma puppies. A quarter gray pure.
[00:39:29] Angela: Yes.
[00:39:29] Rachel: So Olaf is a mix. He's mostly Italian Maremma. We got the biggest one in the litter, which was Olaf, and he is a beast.
[00:39:38] Angela: Yeah. They let us pick which one we want.
[00:39:40] Rachel: And so. And we named him Olaf because a lot of you ask about our Scandinavian name theme. And after we named. Well, we've always wanted to name a guard dog Thor because we thought, gosh, you know, after Fluffy, you know, let's really give the next one a solid name.
So we named him a Thor, which worked out perfectly because he has the most intense golden eyes. Then we named his brother Bear, which every other guard dog is named, but
[00:40:07] Angela: he did look like a polar bear.
[00:40:08] Rachel: He did look like a bear.
[00:40:09] Angela: Cute little fluffy polar bear.
[00:40:10] Rachel: And so then. Then we were like. And then the movie Frozen, you know, came out and we're like, you know, Olaf and Sven would make really cute, cute guard dog names. And so now I'm not usually a fan of themes when it comes to names, because I like to name things, you know, after kind of who they are. I don't really want to put them in a box. So, like, I like to see their personality and their characteristics flesh out before I really put a name on them or a name will come about just looking at them. But so far, Olaf and Sven fit their name. Strength. They're perfect. Olaf loves warm hugs. Sven's a mischievous little guy. So. So it works out perfectly. Yeah. And, yeah,
[00:40:50] Angela: we had learned our lesson about brothers. Yeah. So we had wanted to have more years between Olaf and Sven, but Bear was really slowing down, and we thought, well, maybe one year will be enough.
[00:41:03] Rachel: And I think that would have been fine if they wouldn't have learned bad habits from Thor and Bear, because, like we said, Thor and Bear had a constant power struggle,
[00:41:15] Angela: even when they were old.
[00:41:17] Rachel: And Olaf and Sven watched that.
And Sven, I think Olaf Would have been fine. But Sven has a very strong assertiveness about him. He's definitely got alpha vibes. Again, everybody here is fixed, everybody is neutered.
But Sven has a lot of misplaced aggression when it comes to Olaf occasionally.
And so that's an unfortunate thing that has continued to be passed down from Thorn Bear, which is why our next puppy is going to be a female.
[00:41:54] Angela: Yeah, we're going to break this cycle
[00:41:55] Rachel: and hopefully that'll break the cycle. Because another question a lot of people ask is, why don't you have females?
We just happen to end up with four males all at the same time. There's nothing against females.
I Brooke was amazing and so I'm really looking forward to. Happy was amazing too. Happy was amazing too.
So, I mean, either male or female, I'd say they're equally amazing. Yeah. And when
[00:42:21] Angela: after we got Olaf, the very next year, another Angora goat farm over in Oregon had a litter and they had a male that was available and they were more than happy for it to come live with us, knowing our reputation.
So that's why we end up with another male.
Yeah, there wasn't an option for a female that time.
[00:42:43] Rachel: And Sven is half great peer, half Maremma. And so we've noticed a lot of different behavioral things, even with him being half
[00:42:52] Sarah: characteristics. Yeah.
[00:42:53] Rachel: So when there is a threat, the Sven is after it. He is insanely fast. He is on it. He is always watching the sky. So Sven established a no fly zone over the ranch and if he sees any bird of prey, he's immediately on it. So it's really cool watching him and all the others interact with the doherd, because if they see a threat, Sven goes after the threat. Olaf is the in between and then Thor stays with the goats.
So it's really cool watching all the guard dogs and their interactions and their dynamics in that respect. And again, that none of that is trained. That is 100% instinct. The only thing we have formally trained them on is how to sit and how to shake and roll over. And even with Sven, again, this goes back to their intelligence. With Sven, I actually never even taught him how to sit or do any of those tricks. He simply learned them by observing Olaf and Thor and Bear doing them.
So now Sven, being he's a total theater kid, he's very loud and boisterous and because of that he has his own little tricks. So we always do sit pretty and he does a different sit pretty every night.
So last night was a really cute one.
It was really cute. So, yeah, so those are the guard dogs we have now and the different breeds.
So we really, really love the Italian Maremma. That has always worked very, very well for us. They have enough intensity to go after the big animals where we live, but they're not too intense to where, you know, they're going after anything that enters into the goat pen.
[00:44:34] Angela: But we're not opposed to other breeds either.
[00:44:37] Rachel: No, we're not. But also on that subject, if a stray cat does go into the goat pen, they will go after it.
They will go after stray cats. They will go after dogs that they do not know, you know? So they're. So whenever we get a cat, because all of our cats are rescues, I have to do a formal introduction with Olaf because Olaf is in charge of the cats.
I did not choose that. Olaf chose that on his own. The others voted him to be the cat person.
So whenever we get a rescue cat, I hold the cat up to Olaf and I'm like, good kitty, good kitty. This kitty under your protection now. And then Olaf does a lot of deep sniffing with the cat, downloads that into his guardian software, and somehow lets Sven and Thor know that this cat is now under our protection. Don't go after it.
Same, you know, and they don't go after the chickens. Now, Olaf, when he was a puppy, did go after a chicken and kill it, and we got after him, and he's never done it again.
And the chickens are constantly. Chickens are everywhere. Okay. You think the dogs rule the ranch. It's really the chickens. Yeah. Chickens are everywhere. Cats are everywhere. But they know exactly which ones are under their protection and which ones are not.
And we have had two coyotes that have dug under the fence and tried to make a run for the barn to get after the goats.
And this is when we had all four. We had Thor, Bear, Olaf, and Sven.
Sven was just a puppy, and these incidents happened just, like a month or two apart.
And Sven was just a puppy, so I don't know how much he actually participated in the attack.
But Olaf had a black eye, poor guy. And Bear had a puncture wound in his nose. But neither coyote left alive, so I think they were dead
[00:46:29] Angela: when we found him.
[00:46:29] Rachel: Yeah, I mean, these guys know what they're doing. They are intense. They look like big, fluffy polar bears. Cuddly marshmallows. But they are doom clouds, as some people have called them. So they know exactly what they're doing and when to do it. And they've perfectly established who works when, where they work. You know, it's just amazing. We're not out there micromanaging them.
[00:46:56] Sarah: Some of the common questions we have. I have like, a list here.
What do we do with the puppies when we get them here? What's that protocol? That
[00:47:02] Rachel: is a good question.
[00:47:04] Angela: Yeah. So we don't just throw them in like Happy was all those years ago, because that's. Let them fend for themselves.
No, we want to make sure that they recognize their boundaries. As a dog, what behavior is acceptable and not acceptable? So we set up a pen with the goats, and they stay in there unless they're being supervised for about the first six months.
[00:47:26] Sarah: But they also live in the house.
[00:47:28] Angela: They stay in the house about the first week or so to bond with us. Recognize this is your new home. We're your new people.
They spend their time in the barn where they can watch and learn. And then we let them out during the daytime, and then we'd put them back in their kennel at night. And then eventually they prove themselves and they get to live full time with the herd. And it's different with every dog.
[00:47:52] Rachel: It is. Because when we got. When we got Baron Thor's puppies, you know, they were down in the barn and we did that same thing. However they were. When they were in their, like, you know, adolescent era, they pinned a goat down and were chewing on its horns.
[00:48:06] Angela: Yep.
Which
[00:48:08] Rachel: is very naughty.
[00:48:09] Angela: Very naughty.
[00:48:09] Rachel: Very naughty. So we got after that. And that goat hated dogs after
[00:48:14] Angela: that, especially those two.
[00:48:16] Rachel: So sorry, Ms. Do.
Very sorry.
So there are some goats that don't like the dogs.
[00:48:23] Angela: Nope. And the dogs stay far away from.
[00:48:26] Rachel: Far away from those goats. Other. Other goats love the dogs. Yep. So. And then. And then, you know, just depending on the dog's personality, some of them. All three of these dogs really love kidding season. That's when the babies are born. But Olaf is the only one patient enough to let the baby goats jump and cuddle on it.
[00:48:43] Angela: He loves the babies.
[00:48:44] Rachel: So
[00:48:45] Sarah: Fluffy loved the babies. Fluffy
[00:48:46] Rachel: loved. Loved the babies. So did Brooke. Brooke did too. But Fluffy. Fluffy. And
[00:48:51] Sarah: along this line, I think it's important to know how the puppy was raised, what kind of farm they were born into, and how that influences their behavior.
[00:49:01] Angela: And I think that's a good point, Sarah, because there are some people who have a completely different philosophy than us, and they're hands off. You don't do any interactions with your livestock guardian dog. You. You put them out there, you set food out for them, but you don't want to pet them, talk to them, or treat them like a dog. And I completely disagree with that because at the end of the day, there's still a dog and they're still looking to us for that leadership, for that love
[00:49:32] Rachel: and
[00:49:32] Angela: comfort and that snuggles for centuries, for millennia, livestock guardian dogs have worked alongside their human shepherd and they were treated well. They were in the camp, they were right there with their shepherd, working as a team. And nowadays we put our livestock guardian dogs out there and we all go back in the house and I still say at the end of the day there's still dogs. They like that connection. They like to be told you're a good dog. They love the cuddles.
They still crave what all dogs crave and, and that is a connection with a human. And they do their job perfectly well without us micromanaging them. But I believe we still need to treat them like a dog and not as a hands off object that you have no interaction with.
[00:50:24] Rachel: Right. And there's a lot of myths surrounding what you should do with guard dogs, like tying up a post behind them
[00:50:32] Angela: or a tire
[00:50:33] Rachel: so that they learn to walk better around whatever they're protecting or
[00:50:40] Angela: not climb the fences.
[00:50:41] Rachel: Absolutely ridiculous. I still see that, I still see farms. I
[00:50:44] Angela: know
[00:50:45] Rachel: where they tie up a post behind their guard dog so that the guard dog learns to be more calm around what they're protecting.
[00:50:52] Angela: Or I think in some cases Great Pyrenees. And not to give Great Pyrenees a bad rap, because great piers have a big territory and a lot of times they think you own more land than you do. So if you own 10 acres and you put a great pier on that 10 acres, they're going to think you own the full hundred acres around you. They're going to take care of your property, the neighbor's property, the property on the other side of the road.
So they're not being bad dogs and going over the fence and wandering. They're doing their job. They just have a bigger territory than you. And
[00:51:26] Rachel: I think that goes back to them being more of an offense guard dog.
[00:51:29] Angela: Exactly.
So when I see someone tie a tire onto a great pier so they don't go over the fence, it's like, number one, you have the wrong livestock guardian dog. And number two, you shouldn't have a livestock guardian dog because that is not how it works.
[00:51:43] Rachel: No, because even, even Sven being half, he doesn't challenge any of the fences.
He chooses to be with the goats. That's where he wants to be. Of course, he's overjoyed every night when we open up all the gates, but oftentimes the driveway gate is left Open. He's not going down there. No. He knows his property.
[00:52:04] Sarah: We'll return to my prior question about
[00:52:07] Rachel: how
[00:52:07] Sarah: they're raised, but on the tangent, you guys are on guard dogs, like Italian Maremma's. A lot of what they do is bark to let the predators know, hey, we're here. Stay away, find an easier meal.
There's also where people will put bark collars on. Yeah. So that they don't bark.
[00:52:25] Rachel: Yeah. There's. I've heard people literally teaching their guard dog not to bark. And that's like giving.
I mean, it's like declawing a tiger.
[00:52:34] Angela: Yeah. It's their first line of defense. It's like, stay away. Don't come any closer.
[00:52:39] Rachel: They're barking is their preventative measure to attacking.
[00:52:43] Angela: That's how you live in harmony with apex predators around your property. That's their first line.
[00:52:48] Sarah: So if you don't want a dog to bark, don't get a guard dog. I'm just gonna put that out there. Figure out your situation and what works best for you. But if you're gonna get a dog to work, let it do its job.
[00:52:59] Rachel: Yeah. It needs all the tools in its toolbox. And as soon as you start taking those tools away, you're gonna start seeing things come apart.
[00:53:06] Sarah: So back to environmental upbringing. Olaf.
[00:53:10] Rachel: Yeah. So looking at the way Fluffy. Fluffy was raised with goats. Happy was raised with goats.
Brook was raised in a goat herd, and
[00:53:21] Angela: so was Sven.
[00:53:22] Rachel: So was Sven. Now, Olaf. Olaf was raised on a farm north of us. And he. They had sheep. You know, they had sheep, they had livestock. So Olaf. Olaf knew what that was, but he was raised primarily more by a family.
[00:53:39] Angela: He was more of the general
[00:53:41] Rachel: dog. He.
There were a lot of kids that. He was constantly being loved on by kids.
And so he, I think, spent more time outside of the animal pen than any of our other guard dogs were as puppies. Because when they're puppies, they're learning from their mom because they have a working mom. And so they're learning. They're getting imprinted on endlessly by their mom and the environment around them. Olaf kind of had a slightly different upbringing in that it was more human oriented than the others. And that is very prevalent in his guardian dynamics, which is interesting because it doesn't take away from his job, but it did influence him in the fact that when we're out there, especially at night, and if there's coyotes howling in the distance, Thor goes to his goats, Sven goes after what's howling. What? Olaf stays with you
[00:54:42] Sarah: even when you're walking in a straight line, he'll cut you off. He's like, stay back here. I'll keep you safe. Don't worry.
[00:54:48] Rachel: Olaf will say Olaf. While all of our other guard dogs would have chosen the goats over us, Olaf will choose us over anything, which is sweet, not necessarily what we got him for.
[00:55:04] Angela: He would be, he would be a really good, just general fellow. But in
[00:55:07] Sarah: something to note, if you're looking for a guard dog, look at how they were raised.
[00:55:11] Rachel: Because Olaf, Olaf would probably. He's perfectly happy with his life, being out there with the goats. But he loves people. He loves people. And I know some people do have great peers that are total couch potatoes. Olaf would be one of those. Yeah, Olaf would be. Olaf would probably love nothing more than to watch movies and snuggle
[00:55:33] Angela: and
[00:55:33] Rachel: so. And just to be outside, be a general barnyard dog. Be every. Be everywhere where you are.
[00:55:39] Sarah: He'd like to be what Happy had at her third home. Yeah. Where he could just be. I mean, I'm not saying Olaf doesn't have a happy life. He loves his life and we're literally home most of the time. So he's constantly being interacted with. It's just if he had another choice, he would like that versus if Sven had that choice, Sven would go crazy in Sven
[00:56:00] Rachel: and Thor would not be able to handle it. They wouldn't. They literally, they'd go crazy.
[00:56:05] Sarah: But Olaf has that adaptability. So, I mean, definitely not a con or anything. For sure. A pro. Depending on what you need.
[00:56:12] Angela: If you need a general farm dog where you've got kids, you got a couple of goats or sheep and you want your, you want a general farm dog that's going to watch over everything, not just the livestock. A dog raised like Olaf is perfect
[00:56:29] Rachel: where it was more family orientated than just being with the goats.
Because that has, I believe, influenced his behavior.
[00:56:38] Angela: Definitely,
[00:56:39] Rachel: yeah. What's another question, Sarah?
[00:56:41] Sarah: I'm trying to think. I think we covered a lot of them.
There's also one Rachel's been sharing quite a few videos of us letting the goats out in the morning and people are seeing big dogs play. And I don't think that's something a lot of people see. We see it every day. So I don't know if you wanted to touch on that, Rachel.
[00:56:57] Rachel: Yeah, I can touch on that. So I've been sharing, you know, about the polar bears ever since I took over the social media for the past two years.
And, you know, I've got a lot of videos of them playing and that has never been a problem before. I'm like, look at the dogs play. And everybody's like, oh, my gosh, this is amazing. I could watch this on repeat.
And then.
But for those of you that have been following on social media, you know that Thor has been covered in mats and dreadlocks for a while because he does not like to be groomed. And again, this goes back to his intensity and also kind of jumping back on why we haven't gotten another puppy yet.
Because Thor is a very, very intense guard dog. He takes his job very, very seriously.
And, you know, when we got.
When we got Fluffy, Happy loved Fluffy until she flipped a switch. And then Fluffy loved Brook, and then Fluffy and Brook loved Thor and Bear, well, we thought that would just continue.
And so when we got Olaf, we were quite shocked when Thor kept trying to kill Olaf.
And he would grab his neck and squeeze and shake and literally. And Olaf was just a baby. So we immediately were on that, immediately on that. We could not let Olaf out of our sight if Thor was present.
[00:58:30] Angela: Bear did make
[00:58:31] Rachel: an interference. Thankfully, we had bear, and bear loved puppies, and bear was above Thor in the alpha rank, even though they always fought on that, Bear was above. And so bear was Olaf's protector.
But we had to be very careful for, like, the next six months until split Sven, until Thor finally accepted Olaf. And then it was the same thing with Sven.
So we thought maybe. Maybe that was just a fluke. Maybe he didn't like Olaf. Well, we actually tried getting Olaf's mom because Olaf's mom needed a home and she would have been amazing, but Thor kept trying to kill her, so we had to give her back to her original home.
And so then when we got Sven, same thing. Thor kept trying to kill Sven.
And it wasn't until, like, months later, Thor would finally accept them where we didn't have to keep an eye on them 24 7.
And so now that bear is gone, we don't dare try it again.
[00:59:36] Angela: No, no. And
[00:59:37] Rachel: with. With Thor being gonna be turning 12 in a few months, we don't wanna put him under undue stress, because that's stressful for him, you know, because he. He only does it because he thinks, you know, it's a threat to his animals, threat to his goats. And so that's why we haven't gotten a puppy yet, because right now, we are at the bare minimum of dog power. I like to have, you know, Thor's. Thor's old. I don't really want him on the front lines. And so we basically Just have Olaf and Sven, and I'd really like more dog power, especially with what we have around us. However, I don't dare get another one with Thor. I don't want to put Thor under undue stress. I don't want the puppy to have to go through that. And I think it would just be much easier if Olaf and Sven didn't have Thor influencing them when they have a puppy to take care of.
So that is why we have not gotten another puppy yet.
I'm hoping, you know, we will in the next couple years. I don't want to shove Thor out the door, but I am hoping we'll be able to get a puppy in a couple years. We'll see.
What breed that puppy will be is yet to be determined because while we do love Italian Maremmas, we are open to trying other breeds. Probably not a great peer. We have enough of that in Sven.
[01:00:57] Sarah: And we don't need a super intense one.
[01:00:59] Rachel: We don't need. We don't need a super intense one. But I feel like we've. We haven't given the Anatolians a fair chance because the only one we had came with a lot of baggage because there's so many different breeds and you have short hair and you have long hair and, you know, so that's also something to consider.
There is, you know, the Caucasian. What is it? The
[01:01:23] Angela: Caucasian mountain dog. It's like an Orcha Vorka. I
[01:01:25] Rachel: don't know, but they're. I don't know
[01:01:27] Angela: how to say it,
[01:01:27] Rachel: but
[01:01:27] Angela: they're really cool.
[01:01:28] Rachel: They're very, very cool. They have like wolf coloring and they're fluffy. Yeah. And so I think that would be really. We like the fluffy ones. I think that would be really cool. What's
[01:01:39] Angela: the shorter haired Maremma looking one?
[01:01:41] Rachel: Akbash.
[01:01:42] Angela: Akbash. There's
[01:01:43] Rachel: a really, like,
[01:01:44] Angela: Bosch,
[01:01:44] Rachel: there's the Komondor, which are the ones that are like covered, that look like a mop.
[01:01:49] Angela: Yeah,
[01:01:50] Rachel: a literal mop.
So, I mean, there's. There are so many guard dog breeds out there that, that we'll have to look into.
[01:01:57] Sarah: Something fun to do on this podcast would be to interview different farms and ranches that utilize these different dog breeds and do them firsthand.
[01:02:05] Angela: Right.
[01:02:06] Sarah: Their recommendations, their journeys, stuff like that.
[01:02:08] Rachel: Yeah. So that's, that's something to look forward to with, with Elsa.
[01:02:12] Angela: And when talking about these different breeds, sometimes I will see out on Facebook, Marketplace or some livestock group that someone bred their livestock guardian to a breed that is not a guardian breed. So you'll see Someone maybe took a.
A great peer and bred it to a Newfoundland or a German shepherd or a St. Bernard.
Those are not guardian breeds. Those are breeds that have their own job.
And when you bring that into a livestock guardian breed, you don't know what the puppies have inherited.
So I highly advise, do not start mixing up working dog breeds.
[01:02:57] Rachel: Yeah,
[01:02:58] Angela: it's great, great Peer Italia Maremma. That is a great mix. Or mixing it with an Akbash. But you
[01:03:06] Sarah: have working dogs and you have guard dogs.
[01:03:07] Angela: But to bring in those other breeds is a really bad. Because
[01:03:10] Rachel: each breed has its own thing. And you don't, you don't want to throw a border collie in.
[01:03:16] Angela: Definitely. You
[01:03:17] Rachel: know, because. Because another thing going off of that, that subject, German shepherds, they have a high prey drive.
[01:03:24] Angela: Yes.
[01:03:24] Rachel: That is not something you want to mix with an lgd.
[01:03:27] Angela: Livestock guardian dogs do not not have a prey drive.
[01:03:30] Rachel: They don't have a prey drive.
[01:03:32] Angela: They have a guardian drive.
[01:03:33] Rachel: And it's very different.
And so you don't want to start mixing those up because it's like oil and water.
[01:03:40] Angela: It is. They don't mix. If you're looking for a livestock guardian, stick with the breeds that are proven livestock guardian breeds.
[01:03:49] Rachel: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. This
[01:03:50] Sarah: isn't just hearsay. We got a lot of experience with both working dog breeds and guard dogs
[01:03:56] Rachel: and German shepherds.
[01:03:57] Angela: We used to be a foster home for German
[01:04:01] Rachel: Shepherds. So
[01:04:02] Angela: we're very familiar with. We
[01:04:03] Rachel: know what we're talking about.
[01:04:05] Angela: Yes.
[01:04:06] Rachel: Yeah. And anyway, I was gonna mention something else on that, but essentially train left without me.
[01:04:15] Sarah: I'm sure we'll have a lot more to share and as more questions come in, we'll definitely do another episode.
[01:04:20] Rachel: But getting back to what I was originally talking about with I've. I posted. So Thor doesn't like puppies. Yeah. He also just in the last couple years, hated being groomed. And he does bite.
So he ended up. He
[01:04:35] Sarah: didn't used to do that.
[01:04:36] Rachel: He didn't used to do that. He used to be totally fine. You could brush
[01:04:39] Angela: him and he'd roll around.
[01:04:41] Rachel: We're very hands on with our guard dogs. It's not like we're like, see ya. You know, like, we're very hands on with the grooming and taking care of them and whatnot, because, hashtag, we care.
So it came to a surprise when Thor was like, I'm done.
[01:04:56] Angela: Don't brush me anymore.
[01:04:57] Rachel: Yeah,
[01:04:58] Sarah: I'm done with you touching me.
[01:04:59] Rachel: And so, you know, his mats and dreadlocks got worse and Worse. And I kept getting a ton of flack for it on social media, and I would feel bad every time I posted a video. And he's like, looks like this neglected dog.
And so finally we had to give him some asopromazine.
So it's a. It's a sedation. So we sedated him essentially, and got him all groomed up the other week. And so now he looks amazing.
And since he looks amazing now, now, now people are like, gee, what do I. What do I nitpick now?
So nobody's commenting on Thor now. Now, the other day I posted a reel of letting the does out on pasture because people. People are really enjoying that and getting to be in the moment. And it's a really unique thing.
And there is a video of Sven pulling on Olaf's ear. And Olaf is whining in pain, and people went ballistic, even though I have posted hundreds of videos of the exact same thing.
But now that they're not nitpicking Thor, they're nitpicking that.
So having to explain that big guard dogs play and they can play hard. That wasn't even playing hard, though. That was literally just Sven pulling on Olaf's
[01:06:22] Sarah: ear. Sven being an annoying little brother, and Olaf let him do that since he was a puppy. And I have seen Olaf on occasion put Sven into his place. And when he does that, you will know he's not playing.
[01:06:33] Angela: And olaf's a good 20 plus pounds bigger than. He's
[01:06:37] Rachel: a year older. Olaf and I think people get confused between the three of them because they're thinking, you know, Sven's picking on the old one. And I'm like, when I say he's older, I mean he's older by one year, okay? Olaf helped raise Sven, which is why Sven behaves that way, because Olaf is very tolerable.
He allows Sven to do that.
[01:06:59] Angela: He's very patient,
[01:07:01] Rachel: okay? He. He lets Sven pull his tail. He lets Sven pull every appendage.
[01:07:07] Sarah: Sven's the little sibling trying to push all the older siblings buttons, and it rarely works.
[01:07:13] Rachel: And Sven has a ton of energy. Sven is very boisterous. He's a very boisterous young pup. Okay? He's three going on three months.
He can be very wise and very silly at the same time.
[01:07:27] Sarah: He does a wonderful job, but he plays hard. He works hard. He.
[01:07:31] Rachel: So it's not hurting. It's not hurting Olaf at all. Even. Even on the rare occasions when they get into knockout battles, which are very rare, even then they don't hurt each other. Because their fluff is such armor that they don't even get to skin.
So it's. I mean, and it's. I mean, it's so trivial.
It's so like, really, guys, this is what we're gonna nitpick. Social
[01:08:00] Sarah: media also only sees, like, a minute out of the day.
[01:08:02] Rachel: A minute out of the day. And so people were coming after me saying I should be doing something about it as the shepherd and that I shouldn't be gentle parenting them and that I should be the alpha. I most certainly should not be the alpha because I'm not a guard dog. I'm not out there 24, 7. I'm. You're. The people on social media are seeing that one minute, that one minute out of 24 hours in a day. And I'm not out there 24 hours in a day either. I'm out there for morning chores, evening chores, in and out, But I am not a guard dog out there. That is not my job. That is their job. I'm not going to micromanage them and tell them what to do. I'm not going to be like, hey, no playtime right now.
That's not my position. They establish all that.
And they're playing.
Yes, Olaf is allowing Sven to pull his ear, but they're playing. They'll roll around, and then they separate, and then Olaf sleeps the rest of the day. Sven will take power naps, and then they do night duty together.
So it's just. It boils down to ignorance and how there is definitely a disconnect between people's knowledge regarding house dogs and working livestock, guardian dogs.
And even then I would get people saying their little dogs do that. You know, their little dogs play hard. Every dog plays hard.
And I think a lot of people end up trying to humanize these guys. You know, they have cute names, they look like marshmallows. And then they start showing their fangs and claws and people start losing their minds. It's like, that's actually what they are. And that's what they're for, is for their fangs and claws. Their fluff is after.
So just regarding that, you know, their behavior, they're intense guard dog beasties.
They're not marshmallow pets.
And they have to be regarded as such.
[01:10:04] Sarah: Good points. Did you want to end on that? Is there anything else you'd like to include?
[01:10:10] Rachel: I'm trying to. I'm trying to think what else. I think
[01:10:12] Angela: we've covered everything
[01:10:13] Rachel: there is, but. Yeah, and that's.
[01:10:15] Sarah: I know there's more
[01:10:16] Rachel: from. From Guardian llamas to to Sven, pulling on Olaf's ear.
[01:10:21] Sarah: So I hope all of this information and stuff we've learned along our journey has been enlightening and humorous. And you've learned more about livestock, guardian dogs and the roles they play and livestock, guardian llamas and all the things in between.
[01:10:36] Angela: And thank you so much for being on this journey with us, being part of this podcast as a listener. We hope you've enjoyed your time with us as we just meander down our little rabbit trails. But we sure appreciate you all very much.
[01:10:50] Rachel: And we will be, you know, in the horizon looking at getting another lgd. So,
[01:10:56] Angela: Elsa,
[01:10:56] Rachel: if there's any breeds you particularly really love, you know, give give them a shout out and we'll start figuring out what we want next.
[01:11:07] Angela: Yep.
[01:11:07] Sarah: Yeah. So stay tuned, follow fiber in between, and we'll see you on the next podcast.
